place -- or in his place, excuse me, coming up on thursday. that's going to do it. thanks for watching. i'm thomas roberts in for martin bashir. dylan ratigan picks things up from here. >> the most exciting thing among many, the first visit with p.j. crowley out of the state department since he referred to the manning treatment as stupid. thank you so much, thomas. the show starts right now. well, a happy and lovely tuesday afternoon to you. the news pretty much as bad as the last time we remember checking it. just another day on and a little more information. our big story today, of course, the speech of our own president and what happens now. president obama leaving many unanswered questions after his primetime address on libya, includ he goes.

secretary of state hillary clinton attending a summit today in london, where she and other diplomats are trying to figure out a future that doesn't include gadhafi. >> we must continue to pursue the broader goal of a libya that belongs not to a dictator but to the libyan people. now, we cannot and must not attempt to impose our will on the people of libya, but we can and must stand with them as they determine their own destiny. >> but the rebel advance in libya has stalled as government forces in that country stiffen their resistance near gadhafi's hometown of sirte. we also learned that nato will not be taking command of the mission tomorrow as the president did promise just last night. officials saying the transfer now going to take at least a few more days now. meantime, the mideast wave of revolution showing no signs of abating with the syrian regime staging a massive rally today in an attempt to show it still has the people's support.

more thanñi 60 people have been killed in anti-government protests during the last few days, raising questions about why the u.s. entintervenes to s civilians in libya but not elsewhere. president obama trying to explain when america will act and when it won't. >> it's true that america cannot use our military wherever repression occurs. given the costs and risks of intervention, we must always measure our interests against the need for action. progress will be uneven. and change will come differently to different countries. the united states will not be able to dictate the pace and scope of this change. only the people of the region can do that. but we can make a difference. >> a group that historically has catered to large institutions, governments and investors who have a keen interest in not

necessarily a point of view but a keen interest in accurate information, specifically on the case of libya. how relevant is the fact that libya supplies 80% of its oil to western europe, the western european allies' interest in this conflict. >> extremely relevant. that's exactly why you see france and the u.k. in particular pushing for a more aggressive stance against gadhafi. already you're starting to see this fracturing within the coalition following the meeting in london where france and u.k. are talking about the prosecution against gadhafi and his henchmen whereas the united states is trying to look at this from the perspective of not wanting to escalate its commitment to the conflict and looking at the potential for an exile option for gadhafi. so, you know, those are the energy sbrks and you also have arab powers like qatar and the uae sweeping in and also trying to make a buck out of this, also trying to assert their influence. those energy interests i think

are critical, especially for the europeans. >> if you were to look at the middle east in general, is it fair to say that the conflict lens we should look through is energy interests first, and then after we do that weo at the balance of power between iran and saudi arabia and look at those two variables really along with the balance of power with israel to determine which countries we will intervene on behalf of the dictator, which countries we intervene on behalf of the rebels, basically whether it's a threat to saudi arabia and israel, we defend the dictator. if it's a threat to our oil resources, we defend the oil resources. is that a fair assessment? >> yes and no. it depends on which player you're actually talking about. if the united states -- i think you're going to start to see the public diplomacy in these conflicts start to grind against the underlying strategic imperatives of the united states. obama made clear that libya is not intended to become a

multi-year nation-building exercising as it did in iraq and afghanistan and this was purely a humanitarian military intervention. what happens if you start to see similar crackdowns taking ple inyr,hi h atrg ecen fxtme rcul crackdowns against its sunni population. you don't have energy interests in that country. the united states isn't really in it for the energy in libya but that creates a contradiction in u.s. policy moving forward. i think the u.s. is most concerned about the situation in the persian gulf region, particularly the potential for iran to pursue destabilization campaign there against the u.s.'s sunni arab allies. there are constraints on iran in that reen on and the gcc states have been doing a pretty effective job of clamping down but that's huge for the united states especially as its tame table for withdrawal from iraq is nearing month by month. >> and you said this in the pod cast that we did together i guess it was last week now, that

as unsavory as this may be, perhaps the only glimmer of hope or one of the only glimmers of hope for resolution in the middle east is some form of a deal between the united states and iran. what kind of a deal would that even be, all of us recognizing the absurdity. >> it's a difficult prospect at this point to imagine. there have been attempts in the past. especially when you see iranian moves throughout the region, particularly in the persian gulf, there's a lot of pressure on the united states to slid fight its support to these regimes. iran does not appear to have the capability to draw the united states into a dialogue on its terms. we have to see moving forward what else the iranians can do. it's also incorporate important to keep an eye on the levant

region. over the past week there was a barrage of rocket attempts and it and there was a intent to draw the israelis into a military conflict that. there could jeopardize israel's peace treaty with egypt as well, as egypt comes under pressure from islamist forces in its own country. that's calmed for the moment. it seems that the turks played a role in intervening there so i think we'll see this dynamic where the united states looks more and more so to turkey to act as a counterbalance against iran in trying to restore that balance of power that we've been talking about. >> listen, the education that i have received as a result of being able to speak with you and i hope our audience has benefited from as well, both here and in the pod cast, has been tremendous. we thank you for the time. >> thank you. >> i want to bring in one of our legislators, congressman tom rooney, sits on the house armed services and intelligence

committees, served in the army's jag corps, understands more intimately than a lot of folks in the legislature the dynamics here. am i too simplistic as we were just discussing over at stratfor in looking at the fact libya sells 85% of its oil to france and the u.k. they are the ones that are most worked up about what we do in libya. this is just another case of middle east oil and western interests, in this case the most threatened being western europe and we just get drawn in another way? >> well, that's going to be a hard act to follow, your previous guest. but that's true. there's certainly going to have to be a case-by-case analysis when we look at these countries. we don't talk too much about bahrain, but bahrain is an ally of ours, it houses our fifth fleet. certainly there's a lot going on there. what oil interests are there and saudi and elsewhere are certainly going to play into this in the future. when the president, as he

unveiled his obama doctrine last night, just talked about humanitarian coupled with nato and u.n., i mean that leaves a very wide range of possibilities for the future that i personally think the congress needs to get involved with now as we have historically in our country in the past. >> do you think that if there were not energy interests in western europe relative to libya that we would be militarily active in that country today? >> i seriously doubt it. look at some of the countries that we've conveniently ignored over the last several years or decades. whether you talk about north korea or darfur or any of the countries that might not have necessarily or we have a vested interest or any other interest in, it seems like we look with disfavor upon what's going on there or we might try to help with the margins, but what we're doing in libya is war. and it's getting more and more intimate every day, depending on the type of planes that you're looking -- that we're using in libya now today and the fact

that you're saying we're going to take a back seat role to nato. we really lead nato so that's kind of disingenuous. these are the things that needed to be debated in congress as they always have in our country. we're the branch that's closest to the people and we're the ones, as the president said in 2007, should weigh whether or not this threat by libya or what interests we have in libya justifies whether or not we send our men and women into harm's way. >> do you feel that the congress understands that the american people also understand that this is largely an energy-driven policy, has been for 30 years? >> that's why we need to have the debate. you know, this came out of nowhere and we went on recess. all of a sudden the president decides we're going to go by a nato or u.n. resolution authorization, not a congressional one. we're going to go into libya and pursue these interests. when you have a debate, i mean, granted, you've got to look back at when we went into iraq.

we had a debate for a year before we gave the bush administration the authorization. this is the time when people make up their mind whether or not they understand what's really behind whether we go into libya or whether or not we want to send our sons and daughters to go fight for those interests. this is why we need to have the debate. the u.n. authorization is not the kind of authorization that our founding fathers intended for us to go into armed conflict or whatever the administration is calling it. >> i like to call it not war. >> well, it is, and it's getting more and more like war every day. >> and it's not a laughing matter, congressman. thank you so much for the time this afternoon. here's to enjoying a more aggressive energy debate around our policies in the middle east and elsewhere. coming up, former state department spokesman p.j. crowley in his first interview since he called the treatment of bradley manning, quote, ridiculous, counterproductive and stupid. he's all over the blogs today.

why does p.j. want to talk and what does he want to say? also our exit interview with our man overseeing the bailouts. not to mention a little budget blame game over on capitol hill. it's what they do and all. we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] springtime belongs to the doers. those of us who know grass doesn't turn green just because the calendar says to. and that a big difference can grow from a small budget. for those of us with grass on our sneakers... dirt on our jeans... and a lawn that's as healthy as our savings... the days are about to get a whole lot greener. ♪ more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. we're lowering the cost of well-grounded plants. with miracle-gro garden soil for just $3.97.

the morning after the big move starts with back pain... and a choice. take advil now... and maybe up to 4 in a day. or, choose aleve and 2 pills for a day free of pain. smart move. ♪ smart move. diabetes testing? what else is new? you get the blood, hope it's enough, it's-- what's this?

freestyle lite® blood glucose test strip. sure, i'll try it, but-- [beep] wow. yep, that's the patented freestyle zipwik™ design. it's like it-- [both] targets the blood. yeah, draws it right in. the test starts fast. you need just a third the blood of one touch.® okay. freestyle test strips. i'll take 'em. sure. call or click-- we'll send you strips and a meter, free. can't i just have these? freestyle lite test strips. call or click today.

> meaye ale ye couri. thuned stas aris

diert. and as president, i refuse to wait for the images of slaughter and mass graves before taking action. >> all right. president obama, of course, your president and mine, just last night describing his rationale for the mission in libya, a speech that drew swift and harsh responses from opponents for the 2012 presidential election, but they are running for president, what do you think they're going to say. almost as soon as the president finished, lead republicans were criticizing the speech as murky, inconsistent, dodgy, dubious, and some even called it pathetic. >> john bolton. >> do you know who said all those things? >> yes. you just showed it on the screen. >> so is the criticism warranted? was it on the screen? >> yes, it was. otherwise i wouldn't have known what the hell you were talking about. i'm watching your show right now. >> you can't see but we can.

>> i can't see that far so i have no idea. it's a good thing i have you here to watch my show so you can let me know what's on it. speaking of which, we're joined by our tuesday mega panel. msnbc political analyst karen finney, republican strategist susan del purse yo and our d.c. insider and antique dealer, jimy williams. they're enjoying the afternoon. anyway, the republican assaults, various verbiages that flew about, susan, the most credible in your view. >> the most credible. i think probably none because like you said they were really going out there to make their political statement. and you do have to step back now and say, all right, whether we call it the not war, the unwar, we are in fact at war. our president went up, he addressed the country finally, which is what he was supposed to

do. frankly a republican or a democratic president at this point would do a little tap dancing because, let's face it, the mission is to get rid of gadhafi and they're not allowed to say it. so you speak for a little bit, you take your hits from the left and the right and you move on. that's basically where we are right now. >> do you agree with that, karen? >> sort of. >> is it just because she's a republican or are there words that left her mouth that you object to. >> sisterhood is stronger than part shanship, come on. i agree with a lot of what she said. i thought the speech was very good. i'm disappointed he didn't do it a little sooner. i think given the political climate he should have done it sooner. i agree with susan on the point about gadhafi. whatever the end game is for gadhafi, we don't really know and they can't really say, and that's fine. but i thought the president did what he needed to do last night actually. >> jimy, it's not just the american people or the western

world that can see some hypocrisy, not just in america's relationship with the middle east, but middle eastern countries see that same hypocrisy. and it's clear -- we can navigate it and say, well, you know, bahrain is in our strategic interests. libya is not and there's bad guys and this is just the nature of foreign policy, balance of power, arab/israeli, sunni/shia, this is how it's done. but will the people of the middle east accept that hypocrisy where we intervene with one country and don't protect others from a similarly oppressive dictator? >> i think that we are looking at the middle east like it's the european union. it's one consolidated people and 'sot 'swhe lfifre ndof pelediert kds rigus sects. >> it's only two basic ones. you have iran and the shia and

the saudis and the sunnis and the arab/israel balance. >> and then oil, oil and more oil. >> isn't there a bunch of oil? >> what is this about? this is about oil, or earl as we call it back in south carolina. i was home last weekend and not a single person mentioned this. not one. i was home for four days. not one person mentioned this. >> well, do they like to talk to you? >> we talked about a lot of things, but no one talked about this war. i don't think people care. i really don't. i think people care about the price of gas and is 2 plus 2 equals 4, that's what happens in the middle east, but they don't care what's happening in the middle east. they care what's happening here. >> there's also no solution to be had immediately. we're going to see yemen go down, things happen throughout syria, and i think we said this at the beginning when it came to egypt. the whole region is going to be untable for the next 10, 15, 20 years. we are going to be living in a

place where our friends are our enemies down the road. our enemies become our friends. so it's not like you're going to wrap this up in a bow by christmas time and say, okay, we took care of the middle east. but we are going to have a bigger problem because, again, it comes down to oil. and we are going to have rising energy costs. and we are going to face a lot of problems in this country. and you have democrats in the senate who frankly haven't done anything so far this year. >> whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. huh-uh. >> let me finish. >> they have not brought anything home that the people can -- the republicans in the congress haven't given any jobs, haven't brought home jobs either. frankly the president hasn't either. right now people are waiting to either get a job or see the price of their gas go down and that's what they care about. >> let's stay on that topic because i think what susan just said connects directly to what jimmy just said. we have an unemployment crisis in this country, a housing crisis in this country, we have all these things that are very

real which make it hard to absorb a lot of the nonsense that you might talk about on a set like this or any other environment where you're carrying on about libya or anything else. >> but the turmoil in the middle east for the last 50 years. we could probably go back and look at all of the different icons on tv. >> and i think that's right and as much as we want to talk about the timing of when the president should have said what to whom, to jimmy's point, people don't really care. they care about my life, my kids, my family, my job, here and now. how do i move that forward, which is why i think it was wise for the president to go forward with the trip to brazil, which was about jobs and trade negotiations. >> that's a debatable statement on your part. >> why is that debatable? do you think he was on vacation? >> there's two sides -- we've heard two sides of it. you don't have to agree with it, the other side, but you have to admit there is another side and there was a debate about it. >> and you can't tell me that if you really want to address jobs in this country, that the place

to begin is with a foreign trip to brazil when you have a trade deficit that is the largest that it has ever been. in other words, you have to pri prioritize. >> the day that he went, there were articles and papers in kansas, new jersey and florida talking about the importance actually of opening markets in brazil to specific companies in each of those states. >> and i think that's wonderful. >> to me there's a more direct line. >> we need 30 million jobs -- >> okay, b in terms of sgloe so the anecdote is politically delightful to be look at the ten jobs the president just got you because he had lunch in brazil but it's not solving the job problem in america. >> that seems like a more direct thing than some of the other things being done. >> the other things being done are not addressing it at all. it's hard to give the president on this. >> i don't know why it is that people around this table and elsewhere think that it's the president's job to create jobs.

it's not the congress's job -- >> the corruption of our economy, by businesses that are paying off legislators. >> that's a separate issue. >> this president was elected to deal with a corrupt political solve. >> but going to brazil is not going to solve or not solve corruption in american businesses. it's not government's job to create jobs. it's the industry's job to create jobs. >> that's too simplistic when the government -- industries are manipulating prices -- >> that's a separate issue. >> no, it's not. >> i was going to say that's what you're doing with your steel wheels tour talking abouting in, that's a democrat/republican win and that's jobs. >> i wish the republicans in the house would do an energy bill. >> why don't the democrats do it too? >> they tried. it got blocked. >> fill busters. >> i tell you what, there's lots to talk about, isn't there? >> let's talk about the budget. >> we've run out of time. >> oh, that sucks. >> and the budget is 50 billion

or 60 billion off of a $13 trillion problem. >> my friends over the house passed their budget 36 days ago and they keep blaming the senate for not passing it. ask the republicans in the senate why they won't let a budget pass. >> if they shut down the government, will they shut down the war in libya? >> no. it's essential personnel. >> and by the way -- >> those tankers seem to be essential. >> it will delay your tax refund. >> really? >> how do you know he's getting one? >> are you still going to give me a deal on antiques even though you got irritated with me. >> i didn't get irritated. >> yeah, you did. didn't you see that, susan? >> a little. >> you have not seen me irritated. >> it could be the train ride. karen, susan, a delight as always. james, you are the light of my life. >> thanks to debbie boone, i appreciate that. up next, p.j. crowley talking libya, bradley manning, the uniform code of military

justice, and of course his first conversation with us here at msnbc since he resigned his position at the state department. who could resist the call... of america's number-one puppy food brand? with dha and essential nutrients also found in mother's milk. purina puppy chow. the big guy broke from the sidelines. and just like that, the goal was no longer the end zone... but the coveted blue bag. fumble! [ male announcer ] with so many real chocolate chips you'll never forget the moments that are crammed with joy, chips ahoy!

s you'll never forget with arthritis pain. that's a coffee and two pills. the afternoon tour begins with more pain and more pills. the evening guests arrive. back to sore knees. back to more pills. the day is done but hang on... her doctor recommended aleve. just 2 pills can keep arthritis pain away all day with fewer pills than tylenol. this is lara who chose 2 aleve

and fewer pills for a day free of pain. and get the all day pain relief of aleve in liquid gels. so it was a full day for all of us. we came to london to speak with one voice in support of a transition that leads to brighter future for the libyan people. i'm very pleased with the progress that we have made, both today and in the days preceding it. >> well, secretary of state hillary clinton describing some of the heavy lifting she's engaged in on libya. here's what's on her plate. she's sending an envoy to benghazi to establish relations with the rebels. she's talking to european allies about nato taking control of the mission. and she's pressuring the african union to convince gadhafi that he must go into exile.

the unrest spreading across the middle east posing a unique diplomatic challenge for her and for our entire country. with us is former state department spokesman, p.j. crowley, joining us for his first msnbc interview since he resigned in the wake of some controversial comments about the military's ongoing treatment of suspected leaker, bradley manning. mr. crowley, welcome. what do you see as the primary balancing act for the united states government relative to the current middle eastern landscape? >> i think in my view the intervention was appropriate. the president before taking this action made sure that we had support from the united nations, a strong resolution, support from the arab league. in fact we are invading or intervening in a country in the arab world, and it's the dog that didn't bark. and we have clear allies and we've added to the strength of the coalition in recent days

with the participation of qatar and the uae. now, it's certainly not the coalition that we had in the gulf war in 1991, but certainly we are taking action in a critical part of the world and doing so with support of the region and the world. that's important. >> you have come out aggressively in defense of your comments regarding the u.s. military's treatment of bradley manning subsequent to your resignation. you've been writing about this, talking about this. why so vocal? >> i think actually those two things are connected. we are the most significant nation in the world. we have considerable power. how we exercise that is important. it's important in the context of libya and the middle east. it's also important in terms of how we are viewed at home. as a significant superpower, we have to practice what we preach. i believe in the concept of strategic narrative.

we act consistent with our interest and our values. we become stronger and we attract partners. when we act inconsistent with our values, our credibility is undermined. >> how do you reconcile, i think, a fairly admirable philosophy that you just articulated with the inherent hypocrisy, for instance, of our policies in the middle east where we're pro bebl rebel in a country like libya but we're pro dictator in countries like saudi arabia. >> i don't think they're inconsistent at all. what we're pushing for is political, economic and social reform across the region. secretary clinton made a very important speech in december where she laid out an imperative for all of the leaders in the region. now, the leaders are reacting in different ways. and this is an evolutionary situation as well as being a revolution situation. bin ali was the first to confront this and hosni mubarak saw what happened there.

gadhafi has chosen a different path than the egyptians did. the fact that he turned his considerable army and air force against his own people puts him in a different category than hosy mubarak. >> how is the treatment of bradley manning corrupt the strategic narrative that you assert is so important? >> as a state department spokesman, it was my duty to criticize where appropriate countries for their treatment of their own people. certainly a country like china, for example, where it has a nobel laureate but did not allow the nobel laureate nor his wife to go to norway to accept the prize. and we've been very critical of the imprisonment or intimidation of activists all around the world. but it undermines what i feel is a very necessary and legitimate prosecution of somebody who has done damage to our national

interest through the restrictive treatment that he's had at the brig. as i said in an op-ed in the guardian today, when you have a situation where the pentagon has to explain why a u.s. soldier in custody is standing naked in a jail block, it's a policy that certainly begs for an urgent review. >> you have been very aggressive in indicting bradley manning relative to the risks that he may have c convicted of the lea that he's accused of. at the same time we see in the associated press, a senior gadhafi aide was told to take bodies from a morgue and place them at the scene of the damage for display to visiting journalists. a senior u.s. defense official revealed the contents of the intelligence report. a senior u.s. defense official revealed the contents of the intelligence report on the condition of anonymity because

it was a classified secret. should we not hunt this person down and put them naked next to bradley manning for their breach of classified information in order to reveal this to the associated press? >> well, i don't know about that particular situation. it depends on who the official is and what that person -- >> well, you understand my point. we've got classified information being leaked by one individual and it is viewed -- the accusation is viewed as worthwhile of treating this person as a third class prisoner, no trial and the treatment all administered prior to conviction. at the same time, we have a current active live war in libya, not that this is your issue, but we do have this and we've got classified information being leaked by defense department officials to the press. is that not a double standard? >> well, look, again, i don't know who that official is and whether that official has actually release authority. but certainly i decry any purposeful release of classified

information without appropriate authority. that is what bradley manning is being charged with. and look forward to a prosecution. he's entitled, you know, to a full defense and his day in court. we'll see what happens there. but certainly we are in a situation where going back to my own experience in the gulf war and in kosovo, leaders do in fact play to this 24-hour, seven-day-a-week audience that they have. there's an information war going on as well as an actual shooting war. it's a very, very complex operating environment. >> okay. listen, i'm hopeful to be able to continue the conversation with you. i've got to tell you i'm grateful to get the opportunity to speak with you this afternoon. thank you for the time. >> a pleasure. >> p.j. crowley. coming up on the dr show, a preview of our next steel on wheels tour kicks off tomorrow. but first a little evidence that a broken heart is physically painful.

"love hurts ♪ as manager, my tm counts on me to stay focused. so i take one a day men's 50+ advantage. it's the only complete multivitamin with ginkgo to support memory and concentration. plus vitamin d to help maintain healthy blood pressure. [ bat cracks ] that's a hit. one a day men's. aren't getting enough whole grain. but actually, it's never been easier to get the whole grain you want from your favorite big g cereals. from cheerios to lucky charms, there's whole grain in every box. make sure to look for the white check.

when i got my medicare card, i realized i needed an aarp... medicare supplement insurance card, too. medicare is one of the great things about turning 65, but it doesn't cover everything. in fact, it only pays up to 80% of your part b expenses. if you're already on or eligible for medicare, call now to find out how an aarp... medicare supplement insurance plan, insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company, helps cover some of the medical expenses... not idy direarb. th c save u omayg tthsas dla.. ouof your own pocket. these are the only medicare supplement insurance plans... exclusively endorsed by aarp. when you call now, you'll get this free information kit... with all you need to enroll. put their trust in aarp medicare supplement insurance. plus you'll get this free guide to understanding medicare. the prices are competitive. i can keep my own doctor. and i don't need a referral to see a specialist. call now to get a free information kit.

plus you'll get this free guide to understanding medicare. and the advantages don't end there. choose from a range of medicare supplement plans... that are all competitively priced. we have a plan for almost everyone, so you can find one that fits your needs and budget. with all medicare supplement plans, there are virtually no claim forms to fill out. plus you can keep your own doctor and hospital that accepts medice. and best of all, these plans are... the only medicare supplement plans endorsed by aarp. when they told me these plans were endorsed by aarp... i had only one thing to say... sign me up. call the number on your screen now... and find out about an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan. you'll get this free information kit... and guide to understanding medicare, to hp you choose the plan that's right for you. as with all medicare supplement plans, you can keep your own doctor and hospital that accepts medicare, get help paying for what medicare doesn't... and save up to thousands of dollars. call this toll-free number now.

well, the next time a friend of yours suffers a little heart break, send him to the hospital. a new study actually shows people dealing with an emotional breakup or feeling rejected by someone that they love may actually experience physical pain. researchers put the test subjects inside mris and asked them to look at pictures of the person they had recently broken up with. then they removed the picture and used a device to deliver, quote, tolerable pain, whatever that is, by the way. the scans show that both experiences light up the exact same part of the brain. anyway, research says it is the latest proof of the incredibly tight link between what's going on inside of here and what you're feeling in your body or seeing in the world. so instead of taking a friend out for drinks to help relieve the pain of a bad breakup, perhaps you should just give them some tylenol.

up next, the exit interview. some parting thoughts from the man overseeing the bailouts as he bails out. the best approach to food is to keep it whole for better nutrition. that's what they do with great grains cereal. they steam and bake the actual whole grain

while the other guy's flake is more processed. mmm. great grains. the whole whole grain cereal.

we're back with new evidence of a housing market in crisis. again, we have two crises in this country, unemployment and houses, and they're tied directly together. creates the budget shortfall that say we talk about so much. and home prices are sliding in

19 of the 20 cities tracked, they are barely above reinvestigation from the '06 peak and this dire report comes the same day the house will consider ending the president's troubled homeowner assistance program which has helped the banks space out the foreclosures but has helped very few homeowners. in fact it has been widely criticized for failing to help keep the millions in their homes it was supposed to, simply help smooth out the earnings for the banks who could roll out the foreclosures over the period of a few quarters. the program was created with about $50 billion from the highly unpopular t.a.r.p. program which bailed out the banks at taxpayers' expense. ironically some of the biggest critics of the t.a.r.p. program were the one who say oversaw it, which includes outgoing special inspector general neil barofsky. he joins us from washington, d.c. from what we will call his exit interview. the man so critical of the bailouts is bailing out.

which is just fun to say if nothing else, neil. where do we stand in the level of unprosecuted potential criminal or civil activity and current risk in the financial system? >> well, with respect to to our investigations, we've charged more than 50 individuals civilly or criminally or helped obtain charges. we've convicted 18 people of criminal fraud. we have 150 something ongoing investigations, including more than 70 at financial institutions that either applied for or received t.a.r.p. funds. so we've had some great successes so far but there's a lot of work still left to go. >> let's stop there for a second. of all those prosecutions, are any of them at the big banks themselves and do any of them go to the ceo level or the board of directors level and go to the direct issue of accounting fraud in misrepresentation of these mortgage assets in the investment market? >> well, sure. for example, we have a trial

starting, i think, just next week or two against lee fargus, the chairman of taylor bean and whitaker. that's a multi billion dollar accounting fraud that is mortgages and mortgage-backed securities. there's been a number of guilty pleas in that case already. our jurisdiction is really only those related to the t.a.r.p. and the t.a.r.p. program, and that program we have jurisdiction because they tried to get more than $550 million from t.a.r.p., which we were able to stop dead in its tracks and save that taxpayer money. and we've had criminal charges against a number of ceos of smaller banks as well. >> where do we stand with the big banks, jpmorgan, citigroup, goldman sachs, wells fargo, those who are really dealing in huge volumes of mortgage-backed securities that were clearly not compliant with the rating that was bowing given to them by the rating agency, which at the time

was aaa. >> with respect to those agencies we would only have jurisdiction to investigate into t.a.r.p.-related crimes, not the time of activity that predated t.a.r.p. and wouldn't have anything to do with their t.a.r.p. applications, so that really would be outside of our jurisdiction. >> and that would be department of justice? >> department of justice, u.s. attorney's office, sure. >> i'll leave that one alone. what is the current risk in the system as it stands right now in your opinion? >> i think we're at a very dangerous place. the risk is very high. the largest banks that we were just talking about since the financial crisis have generally gotten larger, about 20% larger. they're bigger, they're more interconnected than before, more systemically connected than before. and notwithstanding the authorities and powers that the regulators have to deal with this problem, they're simply not going to do it. they're not going to use the power they have to reanyoin our

largest banks. >> why are you concerned they won't do that. >> the oversight council which is cared by tim geithner who has been advocating that the tools be used is sheila bahe and she's stepping down in a few months and no one else seems to be picking up the mantle and challenge she's thrown down to effectively use these tools to help shrink and simplify these way-too-big fm institutions that are a threat to our system. >> who would you suggest that journalists like myself and americans who are concerned about this issue, as you leave, sheila is leaving, tim geithner is still very much in place. who should we look to in the government, ted kauffman is obviously gone from the senate, toat coupngnfencef bascuurin shgt, c. >>we, i'm stepping down but

they will continue to go forward with the important work we have to do. it hasn't been settled who my replacement is going to be but hopefully it will be someone who will pick up the reins and bow an advocate for the taxpayer and bring transparency and accountability to these issues. i might be stepping down, but i'm not going anywhere. >> before i let you go, there was an unnamed treasury official, another leaker of some kind to the "washington post" saying the news of barofsky's resignation was like a nice valentine to us. do you take that as a compliment? >> absolutely. i'd like to send that person a thank you note. if anything could better depict both the effectiveness that we've had as far as overseeing treasury and unfortunately the juvenile reaction that they have to our oversight, it's pretty much encapsulated right there. so i do take that as a compliment. if they were -- if there were tears being shed about my departure, it means i wasn't doing my job. >> well, we look forward to

discussing whatever is going on in the world with you and we thank you for making yourself so available to us while you have served the country in the manner that you most recently have. thank you, neil. >> thank you, dylan. coming up on "hard ball" chuck todd and the guest host chair. bill maher is guest, but first our friend buddy powell and andrew jenks from mtv joins us to talk survival strategies for college students without jobs with student debt in a very rough economy. it's easy to get the calcium you need with two soft chews each day give you plus with a great taste you'll enjoy, try viactiv today.

the sorry state of the job market is hardly news for college students graduating this spring, and they should be worried as they will be flooding the labor force at a time when there are already five million unemployed americans for each single job opening that is out there. they are also deep in debt, $24,000 in the hole on average and there's a student debt clock where the total is approaching for all of our students nearly yes, a trillion dollars. here to help us put this issue in perspective, our friend, our neighbor and our pal, mtv's andrew jennings, also tamra, an author of "strapped." >> reporter: dylan, thanks for having me on. this is such an important topic near and dear to my heart. there's a lot of forces conspiring against young people today. this is the first generation we've asked to shoulder a

mountain of debt in order to get a college degree. you know, we sort of sold them this idea that the way to get ahead is to go to college, work hard, play by the rules, you'll come out, you'll get a good job. this degree is really going to catapult you into the middle class. instead what's happening is we have a whole generation, $24,000 in debt as you said. they have graduated, nobody will hire them. they're back at home in their childhood bedroom. you know, we've turned the american dream into the american nightmare for this generation. >> andrew, is that, everything you just heard, a fair characterization as the spokesman for all human beings in america under the age of 30? >> it does sound factally accurate. the spirit, though, i wouldn't say of young people is of that nature. it would be nice if everyone really understood all of those facts and the ramifications of

those, but i don't feel that they walk around with a great deal of self pity. instead, it's what do i need to do to make it from point a to b, even if it wasn't as hard or easy as it was ten years ago. so i think it would be nice if they were more aware of some of the statistics, you know, you guys are talking about. >> what do you think -- how do you -- if they were aware, ife cod gilltrspt l nf erods ow dyoth wld b see stronger groups of -- let's say what's going on now in terms of collective action, people coming together and saying this isn't fair, we shouldn't be paying this much when we're leaving school this much in debt and the job market is as it is. the bottom line is we're paying more than we ever have just as your guest said. so i think it all comes down to better educating high school students when they leave college. i don't think there's really an

understanding from high school to college that gives them the full picture. >> do you agree with what you just heard, that they don't really know? >> well, i think there is a missing link here. i think if they did know and if it was explained to them that this wasn't the way we built the middle chlass a generation ago, this is a change in how we help young people to get the degrees to be successful in life, they would understand that they have really had opportunity ripped out from underneath them. for every college grad that is successful and racks up $24,000 in debt, there's another one who had to drop out because the financial barriers were too much for them to manage. so this is a problem in terms of how we structure opportunity in this country. a debt for diploma system is not working. >> what would you suggest as an alternative? >> well, it used to be, dylan, first of all, we had two things that really worked to help young people get the degree they needed without a lot of student loan debt.

we had a state university system that kept tuitions well in the range of what a middle class family could afford. and then at the federal level, we had grants that really helped low income and even moderate income students pay for tuition without having to get into mountains of student loan debt. >> all right. it's a delight to see you. tamra, this issue is one that i hold near and dear to my own heart as i know andrew does as well. you can catch andrew which airs at some point at some time on mtv. it's not airing yet. it will be on at some point. >> and you'll be watching. >> and i will be there with my popcorn. thank you both. creating jobs, empowering the future. that is what the next leg of our steel on wheels tour is all about as we tackle america's energy crisis. starting tomorrow at a truck stop,